Using Returns to Improve Your eCommerce Brand with E.M. Ricchini from ReturnLogic

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4 min readPartner Guests
by: Holly Kuldell03/22/2022

Quick Summary Here are the main points for our podcast episode with E.M. Ricchini from ReturnLogic.


About the Guest

E.M. (yes, the letters) is currently building the partnership program at ReturnLogic—she’s no stranger to eCommerce, having spent time the last five years in consulting, agency, and other SaaS roles. When not building partnerships, E.M. can be found cooking, skiing, and producing music. 

About the Episode

In this episode, John and E.M. talk about the functionality of ReturnLogic and what it can bring to the table for eCommerce merchants.

After a quick debate about skiing vs snowboarding, the two get into a conversation about the things ReturnLogic allows merchants to do throughout the returns process, and why returns should be such a high priority.

Next, E.M. discusses how and why merchants should shift their thinking when it comes to returns, and how that data can be used to inform decision-making throughout the brand.

Lastly, she brings up how utilizing both data coming from returns and first-party data can increase conversions for your brand, especially in a time when customer acquisition costs are so high.

Main Topics

  • Customer experience vs merchant experience with returns (5:00)

  • Why returns are a vital touchpoint (10:45)

  • Customer returns loopholes (15:15)

  • How returns data increases conversions (18:00)

  • Returns and shipping pitfalls (25:15)

Takeaways

ReturnLogic is more than a returns SaaS product; it’s an operations company. It’s there to manage a broader aspect of your eCommerce business than just your returns policy, and does so with custom integrations and workflows.

Instead of desperately trying to avoid returns, look at them as a way to learn more about your customers and your products. Use that data to make changes, whether it’s implementing more descriptive PDPs or better product photography.

Leverage your returns to figure out what can be fixed about your brand, and remember that no matter what, people will always end up returning items at times.

Better returns tools and cheaper shipping almost always guarantee higher conversions, even though that seems counterintuitive. 

Before implementing any tools to your site, always think about how they play into the overall story your brand is trying to tell. Blindly adding tools won’t get your brand as much ROI.

Resources Referenced

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Episode Transcription

John Surdakowski  0:00  

Welcome to the Agency X Podcast. Today we are joined by E.M. from ReturnLogic. She is currently building the Partnerships Program at ReturnLogic. She's no stranger to eCommerce Having spent the last five years in consulting agency and other SaaS roles. When not building partnerships, E.M. can be found cooking, skiing and producing music.

David Anzalone  0:24  

This episode is sponsored by Gorgias. Gorgias is the number one eCommerce help desk that lets you manage and respond to messages from your site, social email, SMS, all in one platform they have built in automations to handle common queries like order tracking and save your team time and money. Get a free month by clicking the link in the description and elevate your customer experience. Today.

John Surdakowski  0:42  

You're listening to the Agency X podcast, I'm your host John Surdakowski, founder and CEO at Avex, a New York City based eCommerce agency for high growth DTC brands. As always, I'm joined by our eCommerce strategist David Anzalone. Our goal is to provide some insight into eCommerce, technology design and everything in between. Let us know what you think of today's episode. And make sure to visit our website Avexdesigns.com. Welcome to the podcast.

E.M. Ricchini  1:11  

Thank you. Thank you. I'm hoping it'll be you know, a long walk on the beach for me since it kind of sounds like you're parading me as an eligible bachelorette. And yeah,

John Surdakowski  1:23  

I won't hold skiing against you. I'm a big snowboarder, and there's always that beef between snowboarders and skiers, but it's all good.

E.M. Ricchini  1:31  

As long as I don't have to ride the lift with y'all.

John Surdakowski  1:33  

I'm Yeah, yeah, that's always a that's always a nightmare. They should I feel like they should have like a snowboarding and skiing lane, or something. Because it's always it's like, it's two different things. And like someone's facing this way, someone's facing that way. And it's always it's always a mess getting off the

E.M. Ricchini  1:50  

list. You don't coordinate until like right before you get off and then you crash. So it's

John Surdakowski  1:54  

yeah, it's always just like a last minute rush to who's not gonna fall. But actually went to Utah a few weeks ago for snowboarding, and we got like, no snow. So it was awful. But I didn't fall once getting off the ledge. So I'm like, super proud of myself.

E.M. Ricchini  2:10  

Amazing. Because you never want to be that person. Because then you're you have the person behind you. That's like awkwardly sitting there waiting. And it's like, do I give you sympathy do I make?

John Surdakowski  2:21  

And then they got to stop the lift sometimes and you feel like a real idiot. Awesome. So yeah. Oh, yeah, eCommerce, that's what we're talking about. So I guess I'll start off with a little bit about, you know, what is ReturnLogic for any of our listeners who don't know? And in what do you do there, just so that we can kind of set this off and, and know what we're talking about when it comes to returns?

E.M. Ricchini  2:47  

Of course, yeah. So I'm going to go ahead and start with something kind of shocking, and which is going to be don't let the return in our name fully, because we're the sort of the point of entry. But at our core, we're an operations company, we're in the business of helping merchants scale sort of excel at. And as far as my role there, I'm, you know, building the partner program, I started here almost a year ago. And what that means is, you know, a little bit of CO marketing, a little bit of business development and a lot, a lot of zoom calls, which anyone who's in partnerships right now can definitely relate to the the zoom, fatigue, but yeah, so we're a team of, if I'm going to be honest, eCom nerds, I'm, we're aware that no two merchants are alike. We've been in econ for a while. And where we kind of set ourselves apart is that we have an open API, you know, to just to accommodate, an infinite number of solutions rather than, you know, forcing merchants to be constrained into predetermined workflows, one off integrations, things like that.

John Surdakowski  3:59  

Very cool. Very cool. And partnerships is something that I feel like has just like, you know, it's been a thing since, you know, there's been SaaS companies, but I feel like every year it's like, more and more partnership programs are getting bigger. Like we we've even been exploring hiring like someone to manage partnerships as like their only responsibility rather than like some sort of like marketing and shared or sales responsibility. So it's, it's great that that you're, you're building that, that that program out. And I feel like when it comes to returns, for a lot of merchants is almost like almost like an afterthought like, hey, we'll just have our return policy on our site, and hope for the best for in some cases, and then there's other companies who really focus on returns being a high priority. I'd love to talk a little bit about the difference between creating a positive customer experience versus a positive merchant experience.

E.M. Ricchini  5:00  

Yeah, I really love talking about this because like I said, we're very much like an operations company. And I feel like you can kind of, you know, a merchant experience is just a just up way of saying, operations because no one wants to talk about operations. But um, the merchant experience, the customer experience, there are really two sides of the same coin. If you think about it, the returns portal, like, yes, it's super helpful. And it's great to reduce friction on the customer side. But if that doesn't carry through to the merchant side, the experience is not going to be great easing friction for the shopper, but not the merchant doesn't really do anything to help the merchant scale, it just, you know, it makes it easier for the customer to return or exchange things. Because if you if you think about it, there's you know, you you submit your return on a portal, and you know, what happens after that there's, there's transit, there's disposition, there's customer support, there's inventory management, there's accounting, and returns impacts all of these parts of a business that are honestly difficult enough to keep up with without the issue of returns. So that's why I think that an approach to you know, building custom workflows, meaning like completely custom, not like out of the box or predetermined, it can increase visibility for teams, you know, on the merchant side, allowing them to provide the customer with, you know, the best experience with the fewest resources. I actually was thinking about this today. I had a package that I ordered before Christmas, just show up today. It was like, you know, one of those things, there was zero transparency about it, it was just one of those things. I was like, Alright, I guess it's, I guess it's gone. And it showed up. And it was like, Okay, I'm happy that it showed up. But I don't think I'm going to order from this place again. Because, like, what was it three months that it just disappeared into the ether and not a great experience. And then on the other hand, I bought this water drop bottle a little while ago, this is not like a paid sponsorship. And they're not even one of our customers. But they had automated transactional emails throughout the whole experience. And it's like, I don't really care where it is. It's like a water bottle. But they made sure that I knew and then they followed up a few weeks later asking for feedback. And it was just such a good experience. And I'll definitely be purchasing from them again. So now that there's so many apps, you can have things like robust segmentation, you can have things like automation, and it makes it easy just requires, you know, strong strategy and, you know, connectivity between your platforms and your apps.

John Surdakowski  7:53  

Awesome. No, that's great. And that you mentioned, like integration and making those apps work together. I think that's super important. Because, you know, the, the SaaS products that I see doing a really great job are the ones that are extremely focused, right. You know, obviously, ReturnLogic is focused on returns and around customer experience. But I'm sure it integrates well with some other apps out there that you could kind of improve that customers experience or across the board, what, what are some of the, like big integrations that you have, that customers can use that are popular on Shopify?

E.M. Ricchini  8:31  

Yeah, so obviously, we have some three PL integrations. We also because of like our open API can build pretty much anything. We're branching out more into, you know, the other other spaces. So of course, things like Zendesk Gorgias gladly is really huge for returns, because it's really important to, I guess, keeping that transparency and keeping all of this data, you know, centralized in one place. And then, of course, we have some of our merchants who are just building custom connections with things like Klaviyo, I actually talked to a merchant today who has an issue with, you know, troubleshooting versus warranty claims. So if someone say, submits a request for a warranty claim in the ReturnLogic portal, depending on their return reason, it gets triggered into Klaviyo. And they get, you know, a list of questions and troubleshooting to reduce their return rate in that way and have it be, you know, with minimal resources for the customer success team, customer support team. So I would say it's not really a matter of, you know, what integrations we have out of the box. It's more so of like, can a merchant think it let's make it happen?

John Surdakowski  9:55  

Well, that's pretty cool. And that's a good mentality to have is to kind of like well Some of these unknown things are going to come up. And I think it's important to also mention that the software is great, but it's, you know, the merchants that are using it have to have good policies in place and have customer experience be a high priority across the board. Because like any piece of software is only as good as who's using it, and what they're executing with it and what their policies are like and what they're prioritizing. And I'm curious about how merchants can begin to shift their views of returns as more of a vital touchpoint along the customer journey, rather than just a metric that they want to reduce or they want to lower.

E.M. Ricchini  10:43  

Yeah, so I think that for, you know, at least like in the current state of eCommerce, which is I'm just gonna say Shopify. So since Shopify came out, it was almost like returns was, like you said earlier an afterthought, or even, like, an entirely siloed process in itself. And then there's been a shift. And you know, as an industry, we're focusing on, you know, returns maybe aren't so bad, it can be an opportunity to save the sale, we can prioritize exchanges, but I feel like there's more that can be done there. I feel like we can figure out, you know, use returns to see what went wrong in what part of the purchase journey? And you know, how can we fix that moving forward? Based on, you know, the data that you can get from returns? If you, you know, have your returns set up to be, you know, giving you the data that you need? You could see like, was it maybe a bad ad audience that we had, was it a defect in the product itself? Did pricing not maxed expectations? Was it something like fit or color? Did we maybe accidentally or inadvertently send a discount code to someone who's like a serial returner and lose money that way? Because it really happens. I don't know, if you remember, do you remember a few years ago, I think this was mostly for influencers, who, like buy things from Nordstrom, and then just return them after they wear them. But Nordstrom sent out an email to people who had over a certain amount of returns, and they're like, if you don't stop returning things, you're going to be banned from Nordstrom. It's just crazy. Yeah, it was very funny. But you know, when, when it's done, right, the buyer journey, it's more of, I like to think of it as a circle of life instead of a straight line. Because you know, the goal isn't, you know, get the credit card information and make that first sale, it's getting that repeat purchase, getting that you know, brand evangelist almost. And, you know, not only can returns create an opportunity for a bespoke shopping experience, so you know, that Gorgias or Zendesk integration allowing for you know, things like upsells, and personalization, even in the return, but using friction on the shopper side and the merchant side, include increase, I guess, the likelihood for the next purchase. So it's almost like, Okay, how do we take returns out of its own space, and realize that it can impact so many different points of the customer journey and points of the customer journey can also impact return rate.

John Surdakowski  13:30  

Now, that's great. And, and, you know, again, that that's something that the merchants need to be able to focus on, and make sure that their software that are provided outside of just, you know, putting some communications on their site, and then, you know, making it making it a difficult process for the customer. Like, for me, personally, I want, like, I hate returning things, there's so much stuff that I bought, where I've just, you know, you know, I'll just keep it at rather than fill out the paper and send it back. I think the biggest thing for me is just like packaging it up and bringing it to the post office. If there was a way to solve that, then I would return more things, but I guess that's, you know, impossible for software to sell.

E.M. Ricchini  14:15  

Yeah, when there's a software where a guy comes to my house and wraps it up nicely and takes it to the post office, because I'm with you. Yeah, I'm like, people ask me all the time. They're like, Oh, what do you think about returns and I just like look at the pile of, you know, things I bought online that I meant to return and just never did. Yeah,

John Surdakowski  14:33  

but when I do I'm a big fan of this and I don't know if there's some if there's software out if it's ReturnLogic or if it relates to this anyway, but I used to not do this and and my wife was always just like, why don't you just order a few of them and try on what fits and then return getting your own purchases? Yeah. And I was so against that. But now whenever I buy sneakers from like a place that I maybe if it's like Nike or something, or like, converse, um, I know what my size is. But if it's like a brand I haven't used before, I'll order like two or three pairs of pants, the same thing, or like two, three pairs of sneakers. And I'll just return what doesn't fit or doesn't look good. Which I'm sure has to be a big problem for brands, I'm sure that so many people are doing that. And I don't know, how do you live it something like

E.M. Ricchini  15:22  

that, it, I think that probably the biggest way that you can, you know, because it is, it's like a very popular thing I even was shopping a few months ago, and I saw this thing that was like, if you have any questions reach out to us don't order a bunch of things in the same size, or a different size. And, um, I think that, you know, getting the kind of playing the long game having a long strategy where you know, you don't want someone to just buy from you once you want someone to buy from you again and again. And maybe that means having to deal with that initial fitting room purchase and dealing with that return. But, you know, taking stock of why it's being returned, what was wrong with it so that not only can you be more descriptive in your PDP, or like, maybe have better images, because you know, sometimes you get something and the colors off. So anything like that to, you know, when they come back, they won't have to do that, again, because they don't know how things fit, they'll have better guidance on the website. It's kind of, you know, not looking at returns as something to be defensive about. But you know, once again, just another touch point,

John Surdakowski  16:30  

I'd be interested in even creating some sort of some sort of automation for identifying someone who is doing that, and not treating it as like a bad thing like, say, someone who ordered to have everything, it's like, okay, there's two different sizes, clearly, there might be a way to be able to put them in certain funnel or flow and then communicate with them. In a way maybe it's like, you know, you could even if it's not, not saying that you use it as a negative, but like use it as a positive, how can we use that information to be able to communicate with them a bit differently, because they're, you know, buying a bit differently than someone else. So I think there's ways to be able to flip that, which could be really interesting. But I think it's gonna be a while before they solve someone coming to your house and just packaging their stuff for you. But maybe that's a good thing. So when it comes to the data that we're collecting, and like I knew that we always want to collect data on who customers are personalize the experience, but when it's on site, or via email, or SMS or something. But how can returns data inform strategies outside of returns policies, because we spoke about, like, of course, providing a better customer experience for returns or benefits to the merchant? That would mean a long term customer, but you know, how can that information? How can that data help things outside of returns, maybe in other aspects of customer experience, or somewhere else in their business?

E.M. Ricchini  17:55  

Yeah, so this ties into something I'm very passionate about coming from the agency world, which is CRO, you know, conversion rate optimisation, one of my favorite topics. And I think that it all comes down to, you know, first party data, you know, with all the changes in iOS and privacy and just acquisition costs skyrocketing. Being able to take whatever data you have, basically turns you into, like, who ever seen, there will be blood? You know, Daniel Plainfield, you're like, Oh, I’m a data man, like the murder and stuff. But it's true, because it's like, okay, we won't have access to, you know, things we might have had before. But what if we look at what we own basically, like our own data, I guess, for a while it was like own channels was so important with Klaviyo and email, and now it's almost like, Okay, what kind of own data do we have? And then how can we make that work for us? Returns is one such source of that, especially if you can collect primary and secondary returns data, which I think can be really helpful in, you know, CRO strategy, ad strategy. Even, you know, building your brands, of course, like returns is not the only thing but it can be a really important point there. For example, once again, if you know, you're seeing patterns and your returns and things like you know, colors off sizings off, you can make changes, you know, in the PDP in your ad strategy, just being able to use any first party data that you can have access to, whether it's, you know, returns, whether it's reviews, whether it's whatever, if you have access to those analytics, you should absolutely use them and I think that returns is, you know, something that's maybe overlooked in this way, because, you know, it's kind of like returns is over here. No one wants to deal with it. But instead, it's like you kind of shift your perception of it and see, like, you know, do you know what we don't like his returns? How do we keep it from happening, you know, leverage our existing returns to figure out what we can fix. And also be aware that, you know, it's never gonna go away completely.

John Surdakowski  20:21  

Yeah, I love that approach, especially about using that data to maybe change things on the PDP for example, it's like, it might not even be a very it might be in the description. Or it might be like, hey, look, people are returning things. Because this color isn't as accurate. Maybe we need to take different photos or something. Or maybe we need to take more detailed shots. That will, of course, increase conversions, like you said, but also reduce the return. So it's not even about the customer experience of the return, it could be, how can we use this information to improve the customer experience before they even make a purchase? Whether it's altering the policies or altering the PDP or things on the homepage, or whatever it may be, you could grab a lot of data from there. And data is super important. We've been hyper focused on I hate using hyperfocused trendy buzzword and I never use it.

E.M. Ricchini  21:12  

Like I need to take a drink every time someone's

John Surdakowski  21:18  

used it this year. And I'm just like, oh, god, okay. But yeah, that's why we've been very, very much into conversion rate optimization this for the past year, especially working with Dynamic Yield. We just started our a program called Growth X, which is dedicated to only CRO, and it's a really neat program. But what I like about Dynamic Yield is that you could actually, you know, because you have an API, there's, there's likely ways that you could AB test certain things with returns on your store, because there's an API there. So like, a lot of people think about, like conversion optimization, as really like A B and multivariate testing, and you're testing user experience, but there might be a lot of ways to test things that have to do at returns, whether it's policies or functionality or, you know, treating returns a little bit differently in segmenting them with it and seeing what works and what doesn't. So some really interesting things there. And I never really even thought about, like testing or like, using returns to optimize for conversions. But that's a really, really unique wave of looking at it like that a lot.

E.M. Ricchini  22:28  

Thanks. Yeah, I, you know, I It's like, wanna like a very rare case of, you know, you have a hammer, everything's a nail. So a rare case of that, like actually working. But one of the most interesting things that I think it could be used for is like optimizing pricing. In that, like, say, you know, say you pay, like, $90 for a shirt, and it has a really high return rate, and the reasons for it being returned or like, you know, it wasn't what I thought it was, or like, you know, no reason. And you could look at it as like, okay, we're selling this shirt for $90. And it has X amount return rate. And what if we, you know, lowered it to $70. And we lower the return rate. And even though we're selling the shirt for way less money, we're still making a more of a profit, because we're not getting that churn and the return shipping and restocking and things like that. So it's it's almost like, you know, what, what problems are you having? And you should, one of the first places you should be looking is, you know, returns and what's available? As far as data there.

John Surdakowski  23:37  

Mm hmm. Yeah, for sure. So ReturnLogic, is it? Is it strictly for Shopify Plus, or is it for other eCommerce platforms as well?

E.M. Ricchini  23:46  

Yeah. So we are in the process of becoming platform agnostic, which is, of course, very exciting. So right now, we're only Shopify. But if someone who's not on Shopify wants to use us, we can do like a custom thing because of our API.

John Surdakowski  24:03  

Awesome. I know we mentioned headless as a buster buzzword before. But if someone is like on a headless infrastructure, I'm assuming that they could utilize the API to be able to use ReturnLogic, correct?

E.M. Ricchini  24:14  

Yeah. So we're in the process of opening up all of our endpoints, and I'm going to be completely honest with you. I'm not a technical person. So that's about where my knowledge stops. But I know that you know, we've been talking about you know, how we can be not a solution. But the best, most robust solution, almost like an operating system for returns.

John Surdakowski  24:38  

Very cool. And that's okay. I just do a good job at pretending I know about the technology. But we just can't tell anyone, you're supposed to know everything.

E.M. Ricchini  24:46  

I think if you have like a certain aspect about it, people will just accept it. They will. Yeah.

John Surdakowski  24:52  

You just got to deliver it right. Like God knows what he's talking about. I kind of know a little bit but enough I

E.M. Ricchini  24:59  

know Yeah. That's exactly it. I know enough. What is it? Plato was like, Yeah, real knowledge is knowing that you know nothing. So

John Surdakowski  25:07  

there we go true. This is true. Admit what you don't know. And honestly, like I'm I did, when it comes to returns like I don't, all I know is the customer side, I don't know the merchant side as much even though like all of our merchants do returns and like, but our team executes on those. And it's usually there's, there's some sort of policy or something in place, we don't really influence that so much. But we do try to advise, I will say that there's, there's been like, two things that some of our merchants really push back on when we advise. I have one merchant, I won't say who it is, but they're pretty popular. I went to buy something from their store. And the amount of shipping, the cost of shipping was outrageous. And I was like, I'm not I didn't buy it, I didn't even buy it because the shipping was so high. And we've advised a lot of merchants like, Hey, you got to reduce your shipping. Or if you just work it into the cost, you'll probably increase conversions. And there's been hard stances on like, No, we need, we can't lose money on shipping. And then the same thing with returns, we've advised on like, better return policies or using different tools. And there's always a little bit of like, it's like a it's like a sensitive topic for some reason. I don't know if they just don't want to pay attention to it, or they're afraid they're gonna lose money. But it's Oh, it's because that's like the operation side, right? It's kind of like the boring side. But we don't get

E.M. Ricchini  26:26  

experience. It's funny, our, our CEO, our CEO says something that makes me like crack up every time I think about it, especially because, you know, we all do a lot of shopping online, which is if the return policy is really difficult, and there's a lot of friction, like nine times out of 10 it was written by the CFO.

John Surdakowski  26:45  

Yeah, no, well, yeah, that usually does happen. Because they, it's like an operation thing. It's money. It's a money thing.

E.M. Ricchini  26:53  

Yeah. When really is to be considered part of, you know, the brand.

John Surdakowski  26:57  

Yes. Yeah, of course, it should be. I mean, when you're thinking about customer experience, and branding, in general, you ever looked at everything, like an omni channel experience means providing a great experience across all different channels? And then part of that is returns to speaking of merchant experience, I've never heard that term, is that something that you coined or someone?

E.M. Ricchini  27:22  

Yeah, it's something that I actually was on a conversation with an agency and they were like, Oh, so you know, like, the, the way the merchant experiences it, as opposed to the way the customer experiences it. And I was, like, Yes, I'm going to start using the term merchant experience set of operations. Because it sounds more engaging, because you know, if you think about it, like does, the on the merchant side, there's, there's so much even if you're using like a three PL, that's still part of your process. And even if you don't have your own warehouse team, there's still all that functionality that happens and it's not just you know, the box magically appears at your, at your residence, when you order something online, there's a whole team of people that have to make it happen, and there needs to be harmony between, you know, what the customer is experiencing, and, you know, what the, the merchants experiencing is kind of like the the dowel you need to have both, you know, both sides in order to have a positive experience, because, you know, you can have something that's completely customer focused, but it may not help you scale. So it's just, you know, on that merchant side, it's sort of like, you know, merchants should all be thinking about you know, processes and customizations that they can be putting in place to not only make their I guess, streamline operations is super boring way to put it but you know, streamline operations to make sure that the customer is having a good experience as well.

John Surdakowski  28:54  

And then they're focusing on the their brand because the less time you're focusing on your brand and more time on, you know, those processes, systems operations, super important. But you know, they want to focus on growing their brand and, you know, automating some other things or not having to worry about certain technologies and things like that. But merchant experience, I love that term. I'm going to use it with some of our clients during sales calls. I think it's great, especially since for agencies like we're serving where, you know, we're always talking about customer experience, but we're serving our customers our clients, right, same thing with SaaS products, right, your your key demographic, our merchants. So talking about merging experience and improving whether it's a back end CMS or a tool that they're using making their jobs easier. They're going to see value in that and that's going to trickle down, like you said to the customers because they could provide a better customer experience. They could focus more on their brand. And it has like that kind of trickle down effect, but I'm definitely gonna steal that term. If I use it publicly. I'll give you credit. Yeah, trademark privately. You won't what you won't know or nurture.

E.M. Ricchini  30:02  

Exactly. Yeah.

John Surdakowski  30:05  

All right, great. Well, I mean, I think we covered a lot today. You know, did you did you have anything that you wanted to touch on that we didn't?

E.M. Ricchini  30:14  

Um, I mean, I guess there's just sort of like a general advice for merchants who are listening. And I'm actually gonna, I guess, like, put myself on blast here and everyone else who works in SaaS sales, which is like, I know, with, like, the appification of eCommerce and, you know, the, just, you know, it's my, it's my job to get people on my platform. But I think that a lot of merchants don't really think about, you know, implementing new tech in the context of their brand story. I think that, you know, in order to be successful, now that like, you know, once again, the acquisition costs are so high and there's so much competition. If you if you're going to implement new tech, you know, like ReturnLogic, you need to think of it in the context of the overall story that you're trying to tell and the strategy that comes from that story. And it's probably one of the most important things when you know, doing something new is, you know, keeping the customer journey in mind and how it intertwines with brand story. And if those two are in conflict, then there's not like, it's not gonna work.

John Surdakowski  31:25  

Yeah, for sure. Just overall, you know, focus on what works for your brand your business and just be authentic about everything that you do. Even when you're choosing technology. Make sure it's it's right for your business and that it's going to improve customer experience. Yeah, and immersion experience and merchant experience can't forget about that. Like, I have to shift my, my thinking into merchant now. Just because that's gonna be the new buzzword. Yeah.

E.M. Ricchini  31:48  

You said you're gonna start using it. You can't even I have to.

John Surdakowski  31:52  

I have to. Well, at least will be one of the first Yeah. Alright. Well, thank you so much for joining us. And hopefully we could do this again soon. And

E.M. Ricchini  32:01  

of course, thank you so much for having me.