Building a Successful CPG Brand with Chris Mahoney and Mark Stanczak from Enjoy Life

About the Guests

Chris Mahoney joined Enjoy Life Foods in December 2020 as Vice President of Marketing. Chris has over 20 years experience building brands across multiple consumer products categories.  Prior to Enjoy Life Foods, Chris led Marketing at startup EggLife Foods, building and launching the egglife™ brand in the better-for-you tortilla category.  Prior to that, Chris built the Customer Marketing function at Merrick Pet Care, tripling the business to over $400 million in four years. 

Mark Stanczak became the Assistant Marketing Manager for eCommerce at Enjoy Life two years ago, after being the Digital Marketing Specialist for a year beforehand. He’s a digital marketing professional passionate about creating world-class online experiences that drive website traffic and conversions. Mark’s past experience working in a broad range of marketing, technology, and communications roles enables him to select the right message, platform, and moment to move a target audience closer to purchase.

About the Episode

In this episode, John, Chris, and Mark have a conversation about the Enjoy Life, a CPG brand that sells snack foods free of many allergens like gluten, dairy, and peanuts. 

Chris explains why Enjoy Life was started, and how much food has evolved since then. John mentions the restrictions schools enforce when it comes to snacks and lunches.

After explaining how Enjoy Life came to be, Chris gives a rundown of the rebrand Enjoy Life recently went through, and Mark explains some challenges associated with a rebrand. 

Next, Chris gives advice to DTC brands who are looking to make their way into retail locations. 

With the changes going on with Facebook Ads and customer privacy, John asks Mark to give his two cents on the future of marketing for DTC brands. Chris also chimes in with her ideas to wrap up the episode.

Main Topics

• Enjoy Life’s Backstory (3:00)

• Why Enjoy Life went through a rebrand (7:35)

• The issues that come with rebranding (12:00)

• How to get CPG products into big-box stores (19:00)

• Which marketing channels brands should focus on in the future (25:30)

Takeaways

Enjoy Life started 20 years ago when allergen-free foods were not nearly as popular, and now you can find their products in grocery stores all over the US and Canada. You never know how a market might change over time.

While rebranding can be a seemingly never-ending process, it can truly benefit your brand in ways you may not foresee. Listen to what your customers are saying and take their feedback into account when considering a rebrand.

Due to the changes in privacy, you shouldn’t set your brand up to rely on only one marketing channel. Also, focusing on the data you find from your email marketing channel can help you market your product better and get to know what your customers like more. 

Enjoy Life has plans to launch many new products over the next year, so look out for those as they come out.

Resources Referenced

• Enjoy Life (Ecommerce Store)

• Avex’s Work with Enjoy Life (Case Study)

• Whole Foods (Supermarket used in retailer example)

• Wayfair (Home goods store used in email marketing example)

Episode Transcription

David Anzalone  0:00  

This episode is sponsored by Gorgias. Gorgias is the number one e-commerce help desk that lets you manage and respond to messages from your site, social email, SMS, all in one platform they have built in automations to handle common queries like order tracking and save your team time and money. Get a free month by clicking the link in the description and elevate your customer experience. Today.

John Surdakowski  0:18  

You're listening to the Agency X podcast. I'm your host John Surdakowski, Founder and CEO at Avex, a New York City based eCommerce agency for high growth DTC brands. As always, I'm joined by our eCommerce strategist David Anzalone, our goal is to provide some insight into eCommerce, technology design and everything in between. Let us know what you think of today's episode. And make sure to visit our website Avexdesigns.com. Welcome to the Agency X podcast, today we are joined by Chris and Mark from Enjoy Life, a brand that we've been working with for quite a while now. Also a brand that I'm a huge fan of for some years, me my wife always have Enjoy Life in the kitchen. So I'm super excited to have you both on the podcast welcome. Start off with some introductions. Chris, if you'd like to go first.

Chris Mahoney  1:09  

Yeah. Hey, John. Thanks for having us. I'm excited to share some time with you. We've really enjoyed the partnership with Avex. For the last year, it's been just an amazing partnership, you've really raised the bar on our brand. I am the Head of Marketing for joy life. Got a long history in CPG. And this brand is it's its a great brand. And it's an amazing brand for people that have any kind of food allergy. So we have a very strong and passionate community of brand fans. So I'll let Mark introduce himself.

John Surdakowski  1:51  

Excellent.

Mark Stanczak  1:51  

Hey, John, good to see you again. Thanks for having us. I've been looking forward to this. So yeah, I've been with enjoy life since late 2018. And I'm the assistant Marketing Manager for E commerce. So a lot of my day to day is focused on our digital experiences, whether that's our website, or any of the digital advertising that funnels through our site, getting folks to experience some of the brand, even if they haven't been able to touch the packaging and store yet. And yeah, so that's, in a nutshell what I do.

John Surdakowski  2:30  

Excellent, no, it's great to have you both on and like I said, I've been a huge fan of the brand for a long time. And I love the rebrand that you did. And I'd love to talk a little bit about that. Before we get into some of the specifics. Chris, if you could tell us a little bit about enjoy life, you know, although it's a very popular brand, some of our customers, some of our listeners might not be customers yet and might be familiar with it. If you could tell us a little bit about the brand's origin, what problem the brand is solving why it was started, just a little history there, you have to learn a little bit more.

Chris Mahoney  3:07  

Yeah, the brand has been around for 20 years now as a September of 2000, 2001. So it's funny, it's sometimes I laugh and think it's like a 20-year-old startup with some of the challenges that we still face. After that many years on the market. We started, the gentleman who started the company really came up with this idea of gluten-free foods and snacks and he wanted to be more than gluten-free. He wanted to be free from a lot of other allergens. So if you think about 20 years ago, he's kind of at the forefront of this free from space that we occupy now as long as well as another a bunch of other brands. But that's how it started. It was basically creating snacks that were gluten-free and free from things like nuts and dairy and eggs, etc. And we are a brand that is free from 14 allergens. So our purpose and the reason we exist is to give people who have any kind of food allergy options that taste amazing and make them feel part of the group that they can still have cookies and brownies and chips and chocolate. Even though they have some type of food allergy, they can still be part of the social crowd enjoying common snacks like that. So that's really who we are and what we're all about. And for us like our target consumer is a food allergy family. Someone in the household has a food allergy. Some can be life-threatening. Some could be just sensitivity, but regardless, there are ingredients that they consciously avoid in their daily diet and in their shopping business.

John Surdakowski  5:04  

Yeah, that's a that's a good point. And I would also add to that, especially having, you know, a young kid at home in school, kids are not allowed to bring in a lot of different snacks into school. So even regardless, even if you, if you don't have an allergy at home, like my wife is gluten-free, she is a gluten sensitivity. So she can eat gluten, so she loves those products. And she's vegan. So it's very difficult to go to restaurants. But more so like having kids at home, like you can bring in most snacks. Most snacks, they don't even allow you to bring into school, especially healthy snacks because they have nuts in them, or peanut butter or any kind of any kind of nut butter. And we're just so confident when once we buy enjoy life, we know that my kid can bring it into school, and he's not going to get sent home and not be able to eat a snack. So I think even not having it in the home, but also for schools. I think that's a big problem where allergy, completely allergy free products could shine. 

Chris Mahoney  6:06  

What I was gonna say is just to build on what you said about your son and what he can bring into school. One of the things that we added to our in our rebrand efforts was a school safe message on the front of the package because that is a that's a consumer truth that, you know, kids these days families are like so they have this short list of snacks that are allowed in school activities. And you know, putting school safe on the front of the package. And we can confidently say that because we're made in all of our products are made in a dedicated, not free and gluten-free facility. Like we're safe for kids to bring to school and for in schools to serve. So for us, that was a big, that's part of the rebrand not the only reason we did the rebrand but definitely one of the outcomes of it is being very overt about us being school safe as a product.

John Surdakowski  7:04  

That's that's a great point and leading to the new brand. I'm glad you mentioned it. So you did the rebrand. And you know Avex helped with applying that to the website as well as to email marketing. As far as the rebrand goes, you know, what was the main purpose of about that? I know you said that part of it was to make sure that people knew was allergy free as it received for schools. But if you could tell us a little bit more about why enjoy life went through rebrand, that would be great.

Chris Mahoney  7:35  

Yeah, I, I think there's a few things we were trying to do with the rebrand one is to simplify the packaging, our previous package had a lot of messages. And not necessarily all of them were highly relevant to our target consumer. You know, we just had a lot of copy on the front talking to features of the products. But at the end of the day, our consumer, our target consumer is looking for a brand that offers them confidence and safety in serving allergen free products. So being overt with a free from 14 allergens call out link to our logo contemporized the logo, so it's much more family friendly and approachable. As I mentioned, school safe and certified gluten-free and Non GMO Project verified being very, you know, more clearly called out in the packaging on the front panel versus what it used to look like before we had a lot of certifications like up in the banner up in a banner area on our old packaging. And honestly, John, something more is relevant to our target consumer, as the ones I just mentioned are, we also made a very, very concentrated effort to show appetite appeal, the product photography, on this new packaging is it really is phenomenal. I mean, the agency, the design agency that did this work for us, we're very proud of it, because of the assets and then in the brand value that they brought the value that they brought to the brand and this packaging and you know, Avex obviously did a phenomenal job, taking the assets in that new brand design and, you know, totally updating our website and all of the email marketing is integrated with all of those new design assets. And we just are presenting just much more friendly, approachable and simplified brand image to our target consumer and we're thrilled with it.

John Surdakowski  9:49  

Awesome. No, that's great. And I could definitely see from the website from the packaging, seeing the actual product and having that like you said appetite appeal, super important, especially when people hear gluten-free, nut free, you know, dairy free products, you know, the media of their mind goes to well, it's not going to taste good. But when you see it, and when you actually taste it, it's a world of a difference. And also, you said you started 20 years ago, I think it's important to your point that a lot has changed. And there's a lot more, you know, vegan brands that are on the market right now. And almost like everyone's just pushing, hey, we're vegan, we're dairy free or whatever. It's hard to rise above that noise. So I think that was an extremely smart shift to kind of go back to your roots and make sure that it's, look where we are, we're vegan, we're dairy free or gluten-free. But more importantly, we're allergen free, and it tastes good. So like, I think that is a big differentiator and an important shift. So, and I know that that results may vary. But I would love to get your opinion on this mark of how updating the website, updating the email marketing, all of those initiatives, you know, what, what have been some of the positive results or any negative results as well, I would love to learn a little bit more about how this brand reshift is, as well as any initiatives on the website or email. How has that impacted the business?

Mark Stanczak  11:18  

Yeah, sure. So one of the things that I love about the rebranded assets. And I hope you're you have a good editor, because there's gonna be a lot of ums and ahhs coming out of me. Apologies for that. But, yeah, obviously, when it comes to logos, or styles or photography, a lot of that can be subjective. I love the new look, I think not only does it combine a friendliness, which is like, literally, our logo has a smiling face in it. So it doesn't get much friendlier than that. But it also forced us to rethink visually, how each product line how we want to connect each product line to the consumers in a unique way. So how do we visually show the excitement about cookies versus brownies versus, you know, any one of our product lines. And so while that final finished product on shelf may stand out more, and it certainly does, and it seems we're updated, we also that also created so much for us to work with across all of our marketing materials, both from say, those design cues that are unique to the cookies, there's like an illustration that's unique for cookies, that we can then pull into a collection page on Shopify, that that shows playfulness, but it also shows that connection back to the on shelf product. And so, you know, this, the current business environment being what it is, it's hard to separate out, you know, necessarily what's happening at any given time and say, track things down to a brand change or some other event that might be happening right now. But what I can say is that, like, we are very much focused on being able to speak to any of our consumers wherever they want to be reached. That's DTC ecommerce, or on Amazon or on shelf. If they're just they prefer to go browse. And so we can now that we've really thought through visually, how does each of these products come to life? And how does it connect to the brand, whether they're getting an email, or they're getting, you know, an ad on a social media platform that brings them back to a landing page, they're gonna see that consistency, which is what the rebrand was all about. But I think that just having had to think through visually, all of these things allowed us to flow it through all of our marketing in a way that we wouldn't have been able done if to do if we didn't start from the beginning. And just try to sort of slap additional exciting images on top of our old stuff, you know, so, so that was, that was really impactful. And I will say that we got a lot of good feedback too, from our consumers. Personally, I, I just have to say as an anecdote, like I, I like the word customer better than consumer, I don't often want to say that, but I'm

John Surdakowski  14:34  

You can say whatever you want.

Mark Stanczak  14:37  

Um, but uh, but yeah, so folks are folks who are looking for our products. Notice that and it just led to a better experience all around. So yeah.

John Surdakowski  14:49  

Great. No, I could and you could see when you look at the packaging side by side or you look at some of the the creative on the website, or the email marketing initiatives, like when you look at old versus new, the branding. It just feels it feels more fun, it feels more alive, more modern, but it also still embodies that enjoy life brand that's been around for, you know, I didn't know it was around for 20 years. That's, you know, sounds like a long time. But it's, it's, it's still has that it's still recognizable, but it stands out a whole lot more. So that's great. And especially having those assets for marketing materials, the illustrations, the different colors, how it's like matched to the product, I think that definitely makes it a lot easier to put out good creative. When it comes to the marketing, it definitely made our jobs easier on implementing it on the email and website side of things, because it's just really good creative.

Mark Stanczak  15:48  

Oh, one more thing. Sure. Yeah. So I didn't speak to the negatives of what this project might have.

John Surdakowski  15:58  

Always some negatives.

Mark Stanczak  15:59  

Yeah. And I'd say, in the end results, I don't think there are negatives. But given that we, our brand does have such a history. And, for instance, you know, I think you alluded to this, John, people need to trust that we're still providing the same thing. And so not changing too much is important. But changing in a meaningful way is important. And so since we, and I wasn't involved in the beginnings of this project, but as you said, like I've helped to bring it to life elsewhere with you guys and, and in other places, but you can't like, can't do a half measure, which means that there's going to be a whole lot of chaos for many months, until it all shakes out. And you find that very last asset that's hanging around somewhere. It whether it's a downloadable PDF that you created, you know, seven years ago that's still alive on the web somewhere or like somebody searches, you know, you can control your own website in other places. But somebody does a simple Google search, and you just miss this one thing somewhere on the web. And it's like, oh, my gosh. So yeah, it just it's kind of the gift that keeps on giving. But it's all good. Because you get to revisit everything, literally everything, and have ever updated. 

John Surdakowski  17:25  

Yeah. And I'd say that that's something that probably everyone who's close to the project on the brand side or on the agency side, on our side, like, we definitely think about more and see it like, I know, I could spot a couple things here and there that I see around the internet. But the customer is I think it's, it's a big shift, but it's also still relatable where they could still notice it right? They could still see it's enjoy life. Regardless, it wasn't such a complete rebrand, where you changed the where you change the direction of the brand, or the name or something like that. So I think that it's its minimal, what customers are seeing if they seeing it at all, have such a change. But the and I agree with you some negatives, like when you're going through a rebrand, like when we first kicked off the project, I remember there was like, there's some delays with photography, or there might be working with another third party with another ages, they have to create certain assets and being able to like work together to say, Okay, well, look, we know that there was going to be bumps in the road during the project, and engagement and that it's going to take some time to roll all of this out. You know, and I think that's where both sides really work together. Well, it's understanding that that's going to happen, and you know, how do we react to those things? Yeah. And, you know, going through a rebrand has to be tough. Yeah. So there's a lot of growing DTC brands, especially in the CPG space, that are either just starting out, or they're, you know, trying to get into retail, they're trying to market their products. If Chris, if you could tell us a little bit about some advice that you might give to a CPG brand that's trying to break into a retail location are trying to get their product into the big box stores, you know, any advice that you could give them to guide them in the right direction?

Chris Mahoney  19:20  

Yeah, sure. So ironically, I mean, now that you know that we're 20 years old, you know that we started our business in brick and mortar stores and then added DTC later. But for brands that start DTC, it's definitely hugely challenging to get that first retail brick and mortar when and I think, like, based on my experience, as a marketing guy as a marketing person in CPG, you know, I think there's a few the few lessons learned on this one is, you know, know what your brand's purpose in life is, why is it there what consumer need is it fulfilling, be able to speak to that without having to read it on a slide, but be able to speak to your brand in a passionate way with a buyer. And then related to that be able to bring to life who your core consumer is, because the buyer needs to realize that this brand that wants distribution, their core consumer is shopping in his or her store. Because if you talk about your brand, and the buyer can't understand who's your who your consumer is, and how that relates to their shopper, like you're, you're gonna fail. So those are two kind of key things, the brand representative, the salesperson, whoever it is, that's representing this brand to try to get distribution, you get to really understand who you are, and how you can help the retailer, understand who your competitive set is, right? Not only who you're competing with online, but in if you're, you know, presenting to Whole Foods, for example, do your research, know the category and you know, if you don't have the, the data available, find a way to get it. So you know, work it work your network and get the data so you understand what the category dynamics are. So you go in and you're like, hey, this category that we are in is growing, we recognize these competitors exist, here's how we're different, here's who our consumer is, our consumer segment is growing, this is the need we're fulfilling, you have to pitch. Because as anyone who, you know, is trying to get into retail knows, retail shelf space is a commodity that the retailer decides who gets in and who doesn't get in. And if you don't meet the, you know, the velocity hurdles, within a given amount of time you're out and the next one's in. So, you know, it's definitely and I think that there's, so those are some of the lessons learned. And then, you know, use the initial wins, to propel more wins. So for example, if you get into one region and Whole Foods, and you support it, you know, with marketing, sampling, advertising, you know, whatever you can do to drive trial and purchase of your brand. whatever data you can get, use that to then say, Hey, we got into this division of Whole Foods, we've been really successful, we think that this product would make sense in these other divisions of Whole Foods or in sprouts or, you know, whatever retailer you choose. But it's not a, you know, I think a lot of times DTC brands want to like go all out and get all this retail distribution. Well, luck can be expensive, and could be short sighted. Because if you don't turn and you lose that distribution, you think it's hard to get initial distribution. Once you're kicked out, it's really almost impossible to get back in. Because you're sort of in the penalty box.

John Surdakowski  23:21  

Yeah, no, that makes a that makes a lot of sense. So what I'm what I'm hearing, there are a few things. And I'm hearing that building relationships with your buyers is important. Sales and building that skill, which, you know, not everyone is taught you have to almost like jump into it sales needs to be a priority. And you're not just selling to a customer, you're selling to a you know, a buyer that's buying it for their store, you and you have to identify, you know, what's their pain point? Like? How are you going to make them look good with their employers? Like, how are you going to because if they pick the right product and put it in on the right shelf, and it sells a lot, they're going to buy more, but also don't bite off more than you can chew? Right? Because that could end up biting you, like you said, like trying to get into all of these retailers and getting a huge footprint there. But, you know, it's uh, it's very costly. And then I know that a lot of big box stores are notorious for like, you know, canceling contracts or pulling early where it won't impact them so much, but a smaller CPG brand, one huge hit like that. It could really demolish a large portion of their business. So, you know, just do your research. That's good advice. Yeah, that's great. I think that's extremely valuable, especially for younger CPG brands. I know that we've I've seen a lot of brands, ask that question about how they could get how they can start getting into stores, especially some of our brands as well. So the digital landscape around ecommerce itself is also changing, especially with iOS updates, which how that has now impacted Facebook ads, not being able to target customers as well as you could in the past. So you can't just dump Facebook dollars or dollars into Facebook and expect a huge return on investment. So it's harder and harder for DTC brands and especially CPG brands to get in front of an audience. And Mark, maybe you could chime in on this a bit. Where do you see the future of marketing going for CPG? Brands? Like what's going to be the most valuable channels? What should they put their focus on? If Facebook ads are no longer working as well?

Mark Stanczak  25:43  

Yeah. That is the conversation right? Where to start? So I have a couple of thoughts on this. One is just from our, this company is brand, as Chris mentioned, was, maybe we're starting from a bit of a different place. A lot of our customers are really passionate for, for reasons. That well for a lot of reasons. But that didn't come from an online ordering place that didn't come from like, I like discover this by product reviews. And like I loved the box when I got it kind of a feeling which is great in and of itself. Like that's, I love those experiences myself. And so, like we kind of have this, this advantage in that way where we could transition to selling online. And especially for folks that really have that core allergy need. If they can't find a specific flavor in store, or if they can't find it on Amazon for some reason, they, we have that DTC backup. So it's both a way for us to like, introduce folks, hopefully with a very positive experience with our brand. But then also to keep them supplied, if they're regular purchasers, kind of this backstop that we can always deliver, hopefully, if they can't find it, or they're, they're in a new place or whatever, where they can't source our product. But so anyways, that that being kind of the background, I, I was thinking through like, yes, like if if we are not in a place where we can trust, like, the data that might be provided for whatever reasons, from third parties, like, it really forces us to just do a good job in the first place and the places that we can make an impact. That sounds simplistic, but that's my point of view is like sometimes that just relying on that external lever is too, too simple. And if you plan your organization around that, and then the lever breaks, then you don't have anything to rely on internally, like, what are you going to do? Right, like, that's the core of your question, I think, um, and a couple of things like, strike me. This morning, I was telling, I was telling Chris this morning, I was scrolling through Twitter, and I have I follow some marketers like some of them, most of whom I've never met and probably will never meet in real life, but they have great insights. And I stumbled upon this thread about email marketing, where basically, somebody was saying, like, look, for all those brands out there who are sending me an email every day, every single day, stop it, like respect my inbox, you know. And that's my, that's my point of view is like, I prefer to go deep on fewer things than to get a a wall of information and pick and choose what I liked from that wall. But the responses to me were more interesting and insightful than even that like, initial like, I agree with you. Because some folks were coming back and saying, like, I hear what you're saying, but we've tested it. And, for instance, we sent emails every day. And what we found was that our unsubscribe rate went up, but the people who stayed subscribed really liked it. Or maybe not necessarily seeing an email every day, but a 15 email, you know, a 15 email drip campaign that just is really well crafted and gives them the consumer grade experience. Because like for me, I love this is like very much reflective of where I am in my life right now. But I love Wayfair’s email marketing program. And although I order in, you know, a company that sells like home goods, furniture, stuff like that, but I probably only ordered it from them once or twice a year, but because their emails are so engaging, and so cool. And just, you know, fun to look at, like, I will get back to the site. And they combine that with good personalization such that they're always on point with something I browsed last week, you know, it's that combination of personality and fun. And combining that with potential purchase intent that like, you can only do that in house, like, I mean, with agency partners and whatnot, but like you, you're not, you don't need Facebook to tell you any of that stuff. No. And just one more anecdote on that, like, all that was interesting to me from this Twitter thread, like, yes, like, for some brands every day and email being sent works for them, and for their consumers, which is the more important part. But that's not enjoy life, like we, we have a few dozen products, like we can't keep you coming back for different you know, different stages of your life, after you've moved in, you need, you know, for seeing You're welcome at and then you know, two years later, you need the crab or whatever like, like, we have a much more limited set of products. So I do think our email subscribers want like more in depth, content, more trusted content that's better curated, but some segments may be folks who really liked the recipes, they do want regular engagement, so you can know that about your own consumers. And if you know it, then you can build that experience yourself. So I don't think I really answered How to

John Surdakowski  31:26  

know, I got some takeaways from that what my takeaways from that are, one, yeah, you shouldn't be relying on one lever, one channel that that is going to be detrimental to your business. If it fails, right, you need to own you need to own your, for lack of a better own your customers being like, hey, they're subscribing to my brand, or our brand, they're not just on some other channel. And another part of that is just like good brand building. So like when you talk about like, knowing who your brand is, and knowing who your customers are, and being able to personalize things for them. That's just like, focusing on community and branding and something I talk about a lot. And the brands that do that, like yours are the ones who are not as impacted from, you know, one channel social channel that is not providing the best data now, or it's not allowing you to target more. Why because you have loyal customers, and you've built a real brand. That's something that you know, is probably going to take younger brands a longer time now. But it is something that they need to focus on. And, and yeah, some of our customers send out an email a day, very large stores with tons of product, like one of our clients, they're a fashion brand global fashion brand, they have hundreds and hundreds of products. But to them, it's more like, hey, if we send out one or even two emails a day, that's gonna, it's gonna be more profitable if they don't, but they're not as concerned with, you know, having a smaller product category where they need to have a relationship over the course of many years. So I do hear what you're saying. And my takeaway from that is focusing on brand building, focusing on content, focusing on the relationships you're building with your customers, so that they could recognize your brand. And also, if you decide to send out an email a day that they love you so much that they probably won't even mind.

Mark Stanczak  33:24  

Hopefully, yeah.

John Surdakowski  33:29  

Okay, cool. Chris, do you have anything to add to that? Or the, you know, certain things that might work for chat, this new landscape that we're in?

Chris Mahoney  33:39  

No, no, I think Mark covered it really? Well. You know, we're, I mean, I think one of the things that we like to do, and Mark really is at the forefront of this with our agency partners is like always looking at testing new things, you know, new channels to reach our consumers new types of content. And, you know, I mean, in the world that we now live in, you know, marketing has, and will continue to be a very iterative test and learn process where, you know, what worked last week doesn't necessarily work to engage your consumer, you know, they've moved on, and they're looking for something new. And I think, for us, even as a 20-year-old brand, which in some mines is old, but in some mines, you know, like huge companies, we're still young. You know, I love that we have a team in our marketing and our marketing team that like, wants to learn new things or wants to, like, you know, learn what's out there and test and learn. We're very much in that mindset, every bit of our marketing spend is in digital, we don't do any traditional advertising. So that's by design, and we, you know, with the new brand, presence that we have and all of the work that our agency partners help us with. You know, we're very optimistic on the future. I guess the one last thing I'll leave you with John, knowing that your you and your family are huge fans is that we are launching a bunch of new items this year that we need to get in your hands. We've got some new cookies and some that are out now. Yeah, new lentil chips coming soon. So we owe a care package to John and his family. So we'll we'll follow up on that in the next week. But yeah, some great stuff that's coming to stores very soon.

John Surdakowski  35:28  

Awesome. Yeah, my wife is obsessed with a little chocolate chip. She literally just eats them out of the bag as a snack. And I like the cookies and the and the breakfast and breakfast bars, the ovals but Yeah, huge fans of it. I would definitely appreciate that. I'm looking forward to the lentil chips, but I think we covered everything today, Chris. Mark, thank you so much for joining. Yeah. Thanks for having me. I'm glad to have you on and hopefully we can have you on again. Okay. Thanks a lot. Thanks. All right. Thanks.